Curse

reaper with no name · Aug 08, 2010, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Whoa, whoa, whoa, there is nothing physically stopping you from making a full deadly arts build (though to be fair, the lack of any weapons and whatnot for it demonstrates that it is not supposed to be a major attribute, but a third attribute that one specs into). You don't make one because deadly arts sucks.

So, what happens if it gets improved? With the game as old and set as it is, Deadly Arts would either still be underpowered, or it would be powerful enough to kick somebody else out of their job.

After all, what does deadly arts offer?

Hexes? That's what Necromancers and Mesmers do.

Ranged damage? Hello every caster in the game, plus Rangers and Paragons.

Conditions? There are so many ways to inflict those I won't even go into them, never mind that most aren't even worth using.

Energy Management? It does those things fairly well already (that's what Way of the Empty Palm is for, by the way). Besides, sins don't need that; they have critical strikes.

Deadly Arts is an attribute that does not synergize in any way with the Assassin primary attribute (which is usually what largely defines what a profession is good at). The only way it will ever be useful to a sin outside of the gimmicks it's used for now is if it becomes very overpowered. And even then, it'll be better used by other professions unless you double link everything to Critical Strikes.

And at the end of the day, why? Why do sins need this? You already have probably the best melee single target damage in the game in MSDB type chains, the best general melee AoE in critscythe, and the best tanking skill in the game in SF. What more do you need?

Meanwhile, Paragons have only one good build, Monks are outclassed in most respects by ER healers, Elementalists have nothing worth using except ER, Dervishes have absolutely zero good builds that can't be done better by someone else, and the only thing Rangers are good for is ranged physical AoE with a free secondary (and even then, Rt/Rs can use Splinter Barrage better than R/Rts!).

And here you're talking about buffing Deadly Arts?

Sirius Bsns · Aug 08, 2010, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Maybe if they changed Entangling Asp to 5e cost, 10s recharge, and removed the 33% spell recharge from DP, things would be a little better for DA sins. It'd make spiking every 10 seconds possible while not having to worry about assassin's skills recharging sooner and becoming problematic. If they also moved Shadow Shroud to Deadly Arts and lowered the cost to 5e, it'd be even more deadly. I don't foresee it being too OPd, either. Furthermore, Deadly Haste could be changed to 5e, 10s recharge, 33% recharge to half-ranged sin spells.

NeroX · Aug 08, 2010, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Meanwhile, Paragons have only one good build, Monks are outclassed in most respects by ER healers, Elementalists have nothing worth using except ER, Dervishes have absolutely zero good builds that can't be done better by someone else, and the only thing Rangers are good for is ranged physical AoE with a free secondary (and even then, Rt/Rs can use Splinter Barrage better than R/Rts!).

And here you're talking about buffing Deadly Arts?

once again... this is why i started this thread in the "ASSASSIN" category. If anyone has issues with other professions, post em up in their corresponding category. I'm not stopping anyone from doing this.

Of course other professions have these hexes, ranged attacks etc but does that mean we can't improve what's alrdy part of the game in reference to deadly arts skills?

Bobby2 · Aug 08, 2010, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeroX

once again... this is why i started this thread in the "ASSASSIN" category. If anyone has issues with other professions, post em up in their corresponding category. I'm not stopping anyone from doing this.

/doesnotexistinavacuum

It would be nice to have the old Siphon Speed back, though...

NeroX · Aug 08, 2010, 02:06 PM // 14:06

no it doesnt exist in a vacuum ... but how can you work on improving 1 thing if you bring 10 other things in the equation.

Morphy · Aug 08, 2010, 04:03 PM // 16:03

You need a well-defined role for Deadly Arts before throwing out random suggestions.

NeroX · Aug 08, 2010, 04:25 PM // 16:25

*sigh* i thought people were going to be a little more positive and productive... but wasnt i wrong

i dunno how much more i can write before it becomes an overwhelming wall'o'text.

Ive listed the problems ive encountered while trying to build an efficient and effective deadly arts dominant build. Which i then thought could be discussed by others also, but everyones cups alrdy seem to be full without even justifying "why?" (only a few have, which im happy to discuss things further).

Bobby2 · Aug 08, 2010, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

If these issues are addressed, then deadly arts may become a much more viable option as they allow for more versatility which assassins somewhat lack.

This lack of versatility is precisely what keeps them in check.

The Drunkard · Aug 08, 2010, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Deadly arts has no caster gear. For it to be worthwhile on a sin, then it is going to have to be worthwhile at around 8 spec. Sin's primary attribute has no benefit for casting. As such, deadly arts is always going to be superior on an X/A than on an assassin primary.

It is a poorly thought out skill line. A simple rework is at best going to change nothing and at worst make the game worse off (power creep). A substantial rework, which the first step is a deletion of the current skill line, is just not going to happen.

This.

Deadly arts is one of the only atribute lines that has no synergy with its primary atribute. Any sort of buff is just going to give necros something else to use.

/notsigned

Mashiyu · Aug 08, 2010, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Deadly arts is one of the only atribute lines that has no synergy with its primary atribute.

Quick Solution: DA spells have the chance to crit (say 1% per point in DA and CS) and trigger CS' energy regain.

Pro: synergy with primary attribute
Con: powercreep, sins as 70 armor casters

jazilla · Aug 08, 2010, 07:31 PM // 19:31

@NeroX: i just think you should have put more thought into what the skills should do. You even said that you threw the skill descriptions in there really fast. people take that seriously. If anything, err on the side of caution and underpower the skills a bit. It gives people a better idea of what you are trying to convey. Again, put more thought into skill descriptions before you go posting skill changes that powerful wily nilly.

Fate Crusher · Aug 08, 2010, 10:51 PM // 22:51

NeroX, the reason why no one likes Deadly Arts is because as I've shown with the list of builds, these deadly arts bars can be used more effectively by other professions.

What's stopping an E/A from running some of your suggested skills? The ele will have a lot more energy and will be able to spam skills with a 20/20 set. yes maybe some should be reworked to be created like a dagger chain that requires X in critical strikes in order to work.

As many people have said, the attribute line itself is badly designed because it does not have enough synergy with any other assassin attributes (or at least a ballanced synergy). The builds i've posted were the outcome of OP skills that had no consequence apart from the lack of 40/40 sets for Deadly Arts.

Of course I believe in build and profession versatility. But Rangers have been giving me a headache with that in HA since 2007. As has Necros. Hidden Caltrops was also used by Rt/A flag runners, as have all the jump skills before aftercast nerf (SpNV's shockwave spike was epic).

NeroX · Aug 09, 2010, 02:55 AM // 02:55

@Fate Crusher
You seem very knowledgeable with builds and stuff due to, im guessing HA. Maybe provide some suggestions of your own of how deadly arts could possibly be improved.

@jazilla
Well i didnt think that wat i suggested wouldve been considered to be extremely OP because i didnt take some of them completely out of their conditional status. For the skills i completely changed i just thought the 'function' would be an interesting take on how a skill could work.

Here's another suggestion that has come to mind.
To synergise deadly arts with crit strikes attribute, how about having something like "... for every 2 points in critical strikes, the damage you deal with deadly arts skills increases by X%". It would live up to it's name then :P

another another restrictive function deadly arts skills could have keeping it unique to assassins could be something along the lines of this...

Impale
"Skill. Target foe is struck for X dmg. If this skill was used after a dual attack, they also suffer from a deep wound."
-- So basically, to get maximum benefit from this skills it requires you to use a dual attack before it. However, you still have the option of using it whenever you like. (Dunno if this function would be implementable).

Work with me guys :P

reaper with no name · Aug 09, 2010, 04:29 AM // 04:29

So, you want to make Critical Strikes an even more overpowered attribute?

Once again, if Deadly Arts is buffed, it will either remain inferior to other options the assassin has (and therefore be useless) or it will be overpowered enough to make something else in the game (like an entire class) useless. Making daggers or something else useless just to make Deadly Arts more useful is not a worthwhile trade.

Deadly Arts is not supposed to be effective on it's own. There is no gear for it. It is an attribute that you spec into, not one you design a build around. Have you ever heard of someone making an entire build around Wilderness Survival? No, it's a supplementary attribute, just like Deadly Arts. If you can make an effective build just out of Deadly Arts, then the attribute line is overpowered and needs some serious nerfs.

NeroX · Aug 09, 2010, 05:06 AM // 05:06

ok, so what about the function i suggested for impale (that could be applied to other skills also). This keeps it in line with your "supplimentary" identification of the deadly arts attribute, because it will make skills more effective when using a dagger build with an assassin but yet keep as a skill that can be used on its own if you want. Theres a conditional aspect to it but allows for a little more variety in the way you use your skills.

Fate Crusher · Aug 09, 2010, 09:46 AM // 09:46

To make it even more simple, certain skills that we plan to keep only for assassins (but not in critical strikes) could have a 50% chance of failure if they do not have 4+/3+ in critical strikes. This makes it dependent on the Assassin's unique attribute (cancelling out other professions using it) and requiring the build to include either a dagger combo or something in critical strikes.

To further rework it, make Critical strikes possibly add 4% damage every 2 ranks for deadly arts skills. so 10 (9+1) will provide 20% damage increase (80 damage will be 96). Not sure if that is enough, but it's a start. It's basically there to add an incentive to use critical strikes for skills that "fail" as explained above.

Terrible Surgeon · Aug 09, 2010, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeroX

Im gonna build a list of new skill functions for current skills in deadly arts.
I'm just throwing ideas out there and hopefully others can branch out from there.

If skill chaining did not exist in deadly art skills...

Way of the Empty Palm
"Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, (while holding a non-dagger weapon)(?) assassin hexes cost 30% less energy to cast."

Entangling asp
"Spell. Target foe becomes poisoned. If target foe is under the effects of a hex, they are knocked down."

Impale
"Skill. Target foe is struck for 25...85 earth damage. If target foe is knocked-down, that foe also suffers from deepwound." (does not require dual attack to use)

Scorpion Wire
"Skill. If target foe is moving, they are knocked-down and receive (5...60) earth damage."

Shadow Fang
"Spell. For each hex on you, target foe is struck for (10...30) damage. (max 100 dmg)."
OR
"Spell. Target foe is struck for (10...30) damage for each assassin hex the currently suffer from."

Iron Palm
"Skill. For 3 seconds, the next time you recieve damage, it is reduced by (7...56) base damage and your attacker receives (7...56) damage."

Shadow Prison
"Hex Spell. Adjacent foes move 66% slower and cannot attack for (1...3) seconds. You teleport to a nearby location."

...once again just throwing up ideas for others to feed off

People call my ideas for skill changes bad....these are LoL

Deadly arts skills are like energy management skills to an ele in that you are supposed to work them into a bar with other attribute lines. Failing to do so results in a shitty bar. Deadly arts is fine, the CD of some skills need reduced imo.

Coast · Aug 09, 2010, 10:31 AM // 10:31

or just revert all the skills of the sin so we can see some epic shit again

(sp wars!)

NeroX · Aug 09, 2010, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

People call my ideas for skill changes bad....these are LoL

Deadly arts skills are like energy management skills to an ele in that you are supposed to work them into a bar with other attribute lines. Failing to do so results in a shitty bar. Deadly arts is fine, the CD of some skills need reduced imo.

thx for repeating what nearly everyone else has said. I think its coz of ppl like you people are scared to suggest anything. Instead of insulting someone for their "ideas" how about working with the person and put forward your suggestions and see where that gets you.
You say you've been bagged for putting out ideas in the open and now you go ahead and do it to someone else. Good on ya man!!! You're heading in the right direction.

TBH, i rlly dont think my skill suggestions were that bad at all (apart from shadow prison). The figures may have been somewhat unreasonable but the function of the skill seem much the same as they are now but in a way to allow a little more versatility.

@Fate Crusher
That's the kind of post im looking for from everyone. Any idea is productive. Thanks for the input and I believe that what u've written there is one step closer to improving deadly arts.